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Artsy me - by Micha

On subjection

Taken from darkdiadem



Subjection Is a Gray Issue

It is such a fine line - this issue of following an organization. Has Jehovah had theocratic arrangements for his people before? Certainly, for a good amount of the history of his dealings with humans.

Submission IS important but using one's one power of reason is as well. Blind obedience is not something Jehovah has ever expected of his people. Why is this? Because we've always been led by imperfect humans. Consider King David. He was the ANOINTED of Jehovah yet he was an outcast at the time. The 'theocratic arrangement' at the time in effect disfellowshipped him, forcing him to live like a nomad. It was David's faith in Jehovah that allowed him to continue on and eventually things were corrected.

Likewise in the first century, many of the anointed at that time still promoted circumcision with Peter even refusing to associate with Gentile Christians at one point. How would the brothers and sisters in those congregations react? Would they blindly follow this errant guidance or would they use their consciences? In time, under Paul's direction, things were rectified.

In modern times during the 60s and 70s elders were given license to police the sexual relations of married Christians. If they found out that oral sex was taking place even between consenting married Witnesses, a disfellowshipping could occur!! This issue was later corrected so that elders no longer police such issues. But imagine living at that time under such an oppressive regime! Brothers and sisters who used their own Bible trained consciences would have realized this was a private issue and none of the elders' business. Would they be following organizational procedure at the time? No, but they would have been right NOT to.

There have also been a number of medical issues, mostly many years ago, involving criticism of such things as vaccines. How would we have reacted reading these proclamations in the Watchtower? Would we have blindly accepted this as theocratic direction as just fallen in line? I would hope reasonableness and common sense would have won out.

There was a huge issue made of not getting married and not bearing children due to Armaggedon's coming so soon. The book 'Children' written in the 1940s was particularly harsh in this regard. The direction from the theocratic organization was: DO NOT GET MARRIED. PERIOD. To do so was considered going against theocratic direction and betraying a lack of faith. Unbelievably, this counsel had such an impact on my father that he did not attend his own sister's wedding at this time! And she was an active Witness! CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT!!!? Again this is a case where submitting blindly to what was considered theocratic direction at the time was flatout wrong to do! If you WANTED to live life single and pioneer, that would have been fine. But that wasn't what was being said. You were being TOLD to stay single. My father was quite emotional when he told me what he did. He told me this shortly before he died. He realized how wrong both the direction was and how wrong his personal actions were.

Likewise 1975 WAS promoted to a great extent both through talks and in print. Many Witnesses got their hopes up but those who used their own powers of reason would have realized that Jehovah would never identify a date that clearly Jesus said NO ONE knows. They would have been very cautious about putting faith in 'every inspired utterance' as it were. In 1980, the Watchtower issued a formal apology for the false expectations.

So it all comes down to a matter of balance. Is Jehovah using the Watchtower organization? Absolutely! Should we follow blindly? NO. I am aware of several current problems within the organization that Jehovah may exact punishment for. The anointed themselves are not always in agreement. That is why we need to always focus on our own personal relationship with Jehovah and build our own faith directly in him so that if anything unexpected might happen perhaps even in the organization structure of things, our faith in him will not waver.


At least someone managed to put it in words... I know I can't do this "blind faith" thing.

Comments

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Actually these were my words written in response to one of Azzaria's posts. I then decided to post what I had written in my journal as well.
Ah, sorry, I'll correct it.
Hmmmmm. Whilst I agree that the light is getting brighter, and everything is "subject to change", so to speak, I do not agree with this post. It is, quite frankly, bordering on talk of apostates. Jehovah's organisation is led by Jehovah, and one thing they have ALWAYS stressed is that we should follow the example of the Thessalonicans. We are reminded of what they did in Acts 17:11, where it showed us that they did not believe blindly, but instead carefully examined the scriptures as to "whether these things were so". Far from being naive and simple-minded, they carefully examined what had been said.

In simple terms of how this is applied today, imagine this scenario: a brother gives a talk and misapplies a scripture. Perhaps it is not a major misapplication and the elders see no reason to council him afterwards. But to those "carefully examining the scriptures", it will be obvious that he has made an error and it can be disregarded.

Now imagine the Watchtower prints something we do not agree with. Can we disregard it because we FEEL it is not right? Because we FEEL that Jehovah's organisation has made an error? No. We are NOT the Faithful and Discreet Slave, and to take on their role in deciding what is the truth and what is not is, quite frankly, incredibly selfish. A more altruistic approach would be to let those who are more spiritually qualified then us, and with far more of Jehovah's spirit resting on them, make that call. We might grudgingly have to change or do something we don't want to do.

Further, imagine if the brothers decided that the whole issue of smoking was actually a mistake that the Annointed were probably not in agreement over the whole thing anyway, and it was a problem in the organisation. They could just ignore the council, and then only smoke at home where they didn't bother anyone who actually believed it. If you truly disagree with the council from Jehovah's organisation, then go start your own religion.

That is not to say that individual brothers are flawless. Elders may make statements of fact that are not, in fact, factual. They may feel a certain way about a certain thing, and they will push and force their views on that. We may choose to differ from them, but if that elder sat us down and councilled us and told us they thought it best if we didn't do something we were doing, would it be such a sacrifice to stop? Yes, we could explain our reasons to the elder, but surely it would not be better to have the attitude of the Apostle Paul who, as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 8:9-13, said that he would cut out eating if food was causing his brother to stumble.

Yes, a balance is needed. We need to balance ourselves and examine the scriptures when it comes to council and reasoning from individuals, as they could well have made a mistake. But, most unfortunately for you, to be part of Jehovah's organisation is to follow it in it's entirety, whether you agree with it or not.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for self-sacrifice and not stumbling others. But, in the end, we're the ones who will have to answer for our actions, so I don't see how questioning the rules is selfish. The elders and the Anointed might be more spiritually qualified than me, but it's my conscience, my life in the balance, not theirs. And I happen to think Jehovah doesn't love us mere mortals any less than the Anointed, so I don't see why he would withhold His spirit from us if we needed it to understand His will. Doesn't that mean that they could be wrong just like us?

Might I point out that my worship is to Jehovah, not to His organization, which is only an instrument to strengthen us spiritually. But my relationship is with Jah himself. I'll follow the organization as far as I can see that it is in agreement with Him.
Personally, I would like to see the refrence for the article for the 1980 apology, so I can read it myself, rather than take someone's word for it.

I have read the articles that people used to support the wrong idea that the end was comming in 1975. Wishful thinking. My mother lived and served faithfully through that time period. She never felt like many that the end was absolutely going to come in 1975 like many did. I have talked to those that lived through that time period, and those that used dicernment realised that it was personal opinion and not official Organizational information that the end was in 1975. All the organization said was according to Bible timeline, 6000 years of human history was comming to an end.

A reading of the Proclaimers book gives good persepctive of the changes in the Organization of the years as the light was getting brighter and brighter. Christmas used to be celebrated at the headquarters, then when it was realized that it wasn't in harmony with Bible principal, it was dropped. The issue of smoking is one that comes to mind too. We have to work with what we have, and do the best to please Jehovah, and not skate on the fringe. My public talk today was on a balanced view of sex and marriage, and the subject of mutual masterbation between single people was brought up, and also just solo masterbation. Mutual masterbation is wrong, and falls under the catagory of porneia (greek word often translated fornication), but although there is no strict law against solo masterbation for single people, it would be unwise to practice it due to the possibility of arousing strong desires that may work themselves out in the form of gross sin. The light gets brighter slowly for a reason. If you come from complete darkness and into sunlight suddenly, it is very painful, but if you slowly enter into the light, it is a pleasant experiance.

As far as the refrence in the Children book, I couldn't find my copy so I could read over the information. I don't know about this case, but I know many times personal interpretation of something the Organization says leads people to put more into something than there was. Such as one person made a comment that space exploration and how we may be populating other worlds in the new system. This comment was based on a few sentences out of an old book that basically said we don't know what Jehovah has in store for the Universe in the future. That is why when we are told by someone that something is so, it is our responsibility to back check the information they refrence to see if it comes from Jehovah or if it is a personal interpretation of what the Organization and the Bible says. The Organization even encourages us to do this.
Brother, I have no agenda. Quite frankly, I resent that you imply that I made up the idea about the 1980 apology. Please read it for yourself in the March 15, 1980 Watchtower on page 17 paragraph 5.

I am NOT reading anything into the 'Children' book. I have a copy and the counsel is explicit. DO NOT GET MARRIED. It is that simple.

Have you read all the literature published from 1968-1975? I have. Thus the formal apology given in 1980.

Do Your Research

1. We aren't led by humans. The organization is only run by imperfect humans and led by Jesus Christ, ultimately Jehovah. One who sees it otherwise, would do well to read through the Worship The Only True God book 'cause they're knowledge is off kilter and needs to learn a bit more.

2. As for various things the organization has directed to do or not do, and then changed later... if Jehovah were to tell us everything right now and expect us to do it, there's no way most of us would make it past Armageddon. It'd be too much too soon and probably stumble us. So he's patient with us, just as Jesus was patient with the imperfections of his disciples. So Jehovah leads us step by step. If you were at the bookstudy a couple weeks ago, there's a bit in that lesson about how he did this with the Israelites on the issue of polygamy, so this isn't anything new and doesn't mean the Organization is leading us astray. Now, if the Organization started suddenly changing direction against the scriptures, we'll start worrying.

3. A snippet from the October 1, 1975 Watchtower article entitled "The End of 6,000 Years of Man-Rule Approaches—What Has Been Accomplished" --
-- snip --
Does it mean that Christ’s millennial Kingdom rule, as the final 1,000 years of that “rest day,” is to be reckoned from September 1975?—Gen. 1:27, 31; 2:2, 3; Rev. 20:1-6.

No, it does not mean that.
-- snip --

So anyone believeing '75 was THE TIME, were making their own interpretations (Prov 3:5,6) and not following God's word. I couldn't find an article in the 1980 Watchtowers about any of this.

4. Always remember that Jehovah tells us through the scriptures to keep checking the scriptures to be sure these things are so. (Acts 17:11)

5. The governing body is always in agreement, due to the Holy Spirit directing them. If one didn't agree, than at least one of them wouldn't be in harmony with Jehovah's Holy Spirit and thus wouldn't be part of the Governing Body. Some apostates often try to say the Governing Body don't agree on a lot of things.

6. Read Hebrews chapter 11.

Re: Do Your Research

1. Nobody is questioning whether or not Christ is leading the organization, only if we should follow their instruction when it is evident to us that the light is not fully bright on the subject yet.

2. Is it ok for us to check and make sure that the organization is not "changing direction against the scriptures"?

3. That snippet is from after September 1975. Did you not find anything stating the same things any earlier?

4. Yes, that's what I want to do, without having people jump at my throat for daring to question.

5. I don't know anything about that, so I'll refrain from commenting.

6. I'm not sure what you're trying to point out with this scripture. Are you implying I lack in faith? Faith on what?

Kingdom Ministry November 1999

As a caution to everyone involved in this post and any other posts regarding the Society, may I suggest that you look up and read the above Kingdom Ministry - "Use of the Internet - Beware of it's Dangers". This sort of commenting is exactly what it is warning about.

In part it says:
12 The Christian congregation is the theocratic means through which we are fed spiritually by “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Matt. 24:45-47) Within God’s organization, we find direction and protection to keep us separate from the world as well as motivation to keep busy in the work of the Lord. (1 Cor. 15:58) The psalmist indicated that he experienced joy and a feeling of security among God’s congregated people. (Ps. 27:4, 5; 55:14; 122:1) The congregation also provides spiritual support and assistance for those associated with it. Therein, you can find a group of loving, concerned, and caring friends—people you personally know who are ready and willing to help and comfort others in times of distress. (2 Cor. 7:5-7) Congregation members are protected by the Scriptural provision for disfellowshipping those who sin unrepentantly or who promote apostate thinking. (1 Cor. 5:9-13; Titus 3:10, 11) Can we expect to find these same loving arrangements when associating with others via the Internet?

13 It has become apparent that the opposite is true. Some Web sites are clearly vehicles for apostate propaganda. Such Web sites may claim otherwise, and those who sponsor a site may give a detailed explanation to affirm that they truly are Jehovah’s Witnesses. They may even request information from you in order to verify that you are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

14 Jehovah wants you to exercise discernment. Why? Because he knows that it will safeguard you from various dangers. Proverbs 2:10-19 opens by saying: “When wisdom enters into your heart and knowledge itself becomes pleasant to your very soul, thinking ability itself will keep guard over you, discernment itself will safeguard you.” Safeguard you from what? From such things as “the bad way,” those leaving upright paths, and people who are immoral and devious in their general course.

15 When we go to the Kingdom Hall, there is no question that we are with our brothers. We know them. No one requires authentication of this because the brotherly love manifested makes it obvious. We are not personally required to provide credentials to prove that we truly are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is here that we find the true interchange of encouragement that Paul spoke about at Hebrews 10:24, 25. Web sites that encourage on-line association cannot be depended on to provide this. Having in mind the words of Psalm 26:4, 5 can alert us to dangers that could easily be encountered when using Web sites on the Internet.

...34 If misused, the Internet can be a means by which Satan overreaches those who are seduced by its power. Although it may have limited usefulness, there is danger if it is not viewed with caution.

In my opinion, many of the commentors agreeing with the above post are boardering on apostasy and if we do not associate with such persons in real life, why should we be associating with them online? I'm not saying that you people are apostates, but that is how it can be viewed by true christians if you don't correct your viewpoints and statements.

Re: Kingdom Ministry November 1999

Truly, no online friendship can be more encouraging than face-to-face contact with our brothers and sisters... Doesn't mean online encouragement can't help, occasionally. I'm speaking from experience.

And, erm... yes, you are calling us apostates. Your selection of quotes falls just inches short of saying I'm lying about being a JW.

Vaccination

You have attempted to point out areas in which the Society was "wrong" in it's advice to us and later changed it's position. Therefore, making a justification for us to question issues today and take our own stand even if it goes against the Society.

Regarding Vaccinations: In my research I can only see where the Society says that some vaccines do use blood in their preparation. Even in the vaccines that do use blood, the Society ALWAYS left the decision of the individual.

Quoting from the Watchtower 1961, November 1st:

As to the use of vaccines and other substances that may in some way involve the use of blood in their preparation, it should not be concluded that the Watch Tower Society endorses these and says that the practice is right and proper. However, vaccination is a virtually unavoidable practice in many segments of modern society, and the Christian may find some comfort under the circumstances in the fact that this use is not in actuality a feeding or nourishing process, which was specifically forbidden when God said that man was not to eat blood, but it is a contamination of the human system.

So, as was stated in The Watchtower of September 15, 1958, page 575, “It would therefore be a matter of individual judgment whether one accepted such types of medication or not.” That is still the Society’s viewpoint on the matter.—Gal. 6:5.

However, the mature Christian is not going to try to find in this a justification for as many other medical uses of blood substances as possible. To the contrary, recognizing the objectionableness of the entire practice, he is going to stay as far away from it as he can, requesting other treatment where such is available.

The Questions from readers in Watchtower 1974 June 1st talks about vaccinations also. Again it comments that SOME are made with a minute amount of blood in the process. However, it again says that it is up to the individuals conscience whether to us such.

Where did you get the opinion that the Society was once against the use of Vaccines? People reading your entry would presume that you knew what you were talking about when you made such comments and get a bad view of the Society as stepping in on people's lives and risking their health by telling them not to take vaccinations in the past. This is so misleading and an actual untruth.

Re: Vaccination

I'd just like to point out that I'm not the author os the essay, darkdiadem is. I simply happened to agree with his viewpoint and re-posted his essay in my own journal. Unfortunately (embarrassingly, really) I have not checked the sources he refers to in the essay. I trust he, knowing his text would cause a measure of controversy, will check this page again soon and reaffirm his sources for you.

Elder's Policing Sexual Affairs of Married Persons

Your comment said that the Society gave the elders a "licence to police the sexual relations of married Christians". In actual fact the statement on the subject in the Watchtower 1978, Feb 15th, says the exact opposite: " As already stated, it is not for elders to “police” the private marital matters of couples in the congregation" Yes, it does speak out against oral sex, but it does not give the elders "licence to police" as you stated. I am sure the elders did not go around asking every married couple what they did in their bedrooms. If an individual elder did do so, he was in the wrong and not following the society's guidelines.

If your case in point is that the Society's view of oral sex has changed and it is no longer as frowned on as it once was, this is true. However, does this mean that back in the 60's and 70's that individuals were irreversibly scarred if they had followed the guidelines given at that point in time? So what harm did it do those couples if they listened to the Society?

I think the point that is missing in all of your arguments that the Society has made mistakes or changed it's views over the years is, we as Jehovah's poeple wish to be a united people. The governing body is made up of men appointed by Jehovah. If they have put something in the pages of the Watchtower, they believe it to be in the best interests of all of us. No, it is not "Inspired" as the bible was, but it is our channel today to know Jehovah's wishes for his people.

As the light gets brighter and brighter, we are bound to see changes. The question is, can we adjust to the changes without becoming a negative influence. Your comments could very well be a stumbling block for new ones coming into the truth. I understand that this post was put into the "teen witness" lj community. How many young ones are you provoking to now question the rightfullness of the Society to set guidelines for us?



Re: Elder's Policing Sexual Affairs of Married Persons

Do you think every youth who reads this is going to start disregarding the Society's rules? You have very little confidence in the ability of the Truth to withstand questioning...
It is not a grey area, either you believe the orginazation has Jehovahs backing or you dont! simple as that, yes, it is imperfect humans , but who taught you the truth? who taught you how their is no hell fire? trinity, and many other truths about the bible.
Things are hardly ever that simple. As mentioned before, Jehovah has used different organizations in the past, and they later lost His support. No one is questioning absolute subjection to Jehovah, only to the organization, which, as roselanni stated a few comments back, is not infallible.

OK here are more quotes - Vaccines

*** The Golden Age 1921 Oct 12 p.17 ***
Vaccination never prevented anything and never will, and is the most barbarous practice... Use your rights as American citizens to forever abolish the devilish practice of vaccination.

*** The Golden Age 1929 May 1 p.502 ***
[Note: not available on 1993/1995/1999 CD-ROM]

Thinking people would rather have smallpox than vaccination, because the latter sows the seed of syphilis, cancers, escema, erysipelas, scrofula, consumption, even leprosy and many other loathsome affections. Hence the practice of vaccination is a crime, an outrage and a delusion.

*** Watchtower 1952 February 1 pp.95-6 Questions from Readers ***
• A folder advertising the supposed health aids of The Jonadab Wise School of Health was distributed to Jehovah's witnesses attending the recent assembly in Washington, D.C., and among other things said: "This unusual authentic service is prepared and offered to you by Jehovah's Witnesses." Does the Watchtower Society endorse this?—W. H., California.

No, the Society does not endorse it. For the sake of the record, let us say that we are not medical advisers. We leave it up to each individual to choose his own type of treatment. Some may favor surgery, some medicines, some diets, and some may prefer other forms of treatment. One illness may require surgery, another may call for dieting. Also, the treatment that helps one may be of no aid or even be detrimental to another. So let each one go to those who are trained in the treatment of his choice. The Society is formed for the purpose of preaching the gospel, and in this field of activity we are happy to offer help and advice. We are not professionally trained doctors, and do not advise on health matters except as they may involve Scriptural issues, such as in the case of blood transfusions.

From time to time we do publish articles on such subjects as surgery, chiropractic, osteopathy, zone therapy, etc. Such articles constitute no endorsement of these practices by us. They are offered in Awake! on the same basis that articles on other subjects are offered, namely, as general information and not as a recommendation. God's provision to restore us to perfection is the ransom by Christ Jesus. In the meantime, fanaticism in health matters is unwise, and absorption in health fads is a form of introversion that keeps the mind on oneself, which is conducive to neither physical nor spiritual health. Sweeping claims for cures by this or that system are always suspect. As stated before, each individual differs. (Rom. 14:2, 3) Moderation is usually beneficial.

Finally, if any claim that the Society is supporting this or that health program, be alerted that such one is wrongly using the Society's name for commercial purposes, for personal gain. (1 Tim. 6:5-10) Some may attempt to boost their pills or other health products or practices by naming one prominent among Jehovah's witnesses as a user or patient; that should never be taken to mean that the Society backs such pills or practices. There are both honest ones trying to help and crooked ones working a racket in all the various fields of orthodox and unorthodox therapies. The Society is separate from them, wholly absorbed in its work of gospel-preaching.

Oral Sex

*** Watchtower 1969 December 15 pp.765-8 Questions from Readers ***
Questions from Readers
• We have received quite a number of inquiries from married persons asking about sexual matters, as a result of views that have been widely publicized by worldly sources. These questions have dealt with conjugal acts, birth control, sterilization and abortion. We herein comment on such matters to the extent that we feel authorized to do so.

[…]

…We have been obliged to respond that it is not the place of outsiders to dictate to a married couple as to what they will do in this intimate aspect of their marriage.

Some have contended, however, that absolutely anything done between husband and wife is permissible. However, that view is not supported in the Bible. In Romans 1:24-32, where it speaks of both men and women who participated in immoral sex practices, including lesbian and sodomite acts, the Bible mentions a "natural use of the female." Thus it shows that to indulge in such perverted use of the reproductive organs so as to satisfy a covetous desire for sexual excitement is not approved by God. This would also be true in connection with married couples; they should not pervert this "natural use of the female." In many places even the law of the land backs this up, making certain acts between husband and wife illegal. For example, speaking about the United States, Time of August 8, 1969, observed: "Sodomy is illegal in nearly every state, even between spouses." (Those who have not learned how such perversions are practiced ought to be grateful for that, for Jehovah God urges Christians to "be babes as to badness."—1 Cor. 14:20.)

In view of their mutual needs marital relations are a way for husband and wife to express tender love and deep affection for each other. Would it be consistent with that selfishly to ask one's mate to share in a degradation of the reproductive organs, acting in a way that the mate found to be repulsive, just so as to gratify one's own senses? Would that be the tender, loving course? No sane person would abuse his or her own human body, or force upon it a practice that was revolting. The Scriptures speak of husband and wife as one flesh. (Eph. 5:28-31) So would a sane and loving husband or wife request sex acts that the other mate rightly regarded as unnatural and disgusting? Obviously authority over the body of one's mate is not unlimited or unaffected by Bible principles.—1 Cor. 7:1-5; Prov. 5:15-19.

*** Watchtower 1972 December 1 pp.734-6 Questions from Readers ***
Questions from Readers
• Recently in the news was a court decision ruling that oral copulation by adults is no longer punishable by law in a certain state. Would such practice therefore be solely a matter for individual conscience if engaged in by a Christian couple within the marriage arrangement?—U.S.A.

…We believe that, aside from those who have been indoctrinated with the view that 'in marriage anything goes,' the vast majority of persons would normally reject as repugnant the practice of oral copulation, as also anal copulation. If these forms of intercourse are not "contrary to nature," then what is? That those practicing such acts do so by mutual consent as married persons would not thereby make these acts natural or not "obscene." Are we being 'narrow' or 'extreme' in taking such position?

*** Watchtower 1975 January 15 p.48 Insight on the News ***
Unnatural Sexual Relations
• Over two years ago this magazine warned against perverted sex practices such as oral and anal copulation, pointing out that, like homosexuality, these were "contrary to nature." The Christian apostle Paul says that those practicing unnatural sexual acts 'receive in themselves the full recompense due for their error.'—Rom. 1:21-27.

used to be grounds for disfellowshipment

*** Watchtower 1983 March 15 pp.27-31 Honor Godly Marriage! ***
Honor Godly Marriage!
[…]

Defining "Fornication"

[...]
As already stated, it is not for elders to "police" the private marital matters of couples in the congregation. However, if it becomes known that a member of the congregation is practicing or openly advocating perverted sex relations within the marriage bond, that one certainly would not be irreprehensible, and so would not be acceptable for special privileges, such as serving as an elder, a ministerial servant or a pioneer. Such practice and advocacy could even lead to expulsion from the congregation. Why?

Galatians 5:19-21 lists many vices that are not classed as porneia, and which could lead to one’s being disqualified from God’s Kingdom. Among them are "uncleanness" (Greek, akatharsia, signifying filthiness, depravity, lewdness) and "loose conduct" (Greek, aselgeia, signifying licentiousness, wantonness, shameless conduct). Like porneia, these vices, when they become gross, can be grounds for disfellowshipping from the Christian congregation, but not for obtaining a Scriptural divorce. A person who brazenly advocates shocking and repulsive sexual activities would be guilty of loose conduct. Of course, a person with that attitude might even sink to committing porneia; then there would be a basis for a Scriptural divorce. How concerned all devoted Christians should be to avoid and war against all such "works of the flesh"!—Galatians 5:24, 25.

Education

*** Watchtower September 1 1975 p.543 Questions from Readers ***
Questions from Readers
• How many years of secular education are advisable for children in Christian households?

Today, there are many teenage baptized servants of Jehovah… how far should they go with a secular education? It would hardly be consistent for such a youth, of his own choice, to pursue extensive secular studies beyond what is required by the law and by his parents… additional years of college education may present snares.

*** Awake! 1969 May 22 p.15 ***
[Note: not available on 1993/1995/1999 CD-ROM]

If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. Of the generation that observed the beginning of the 'last days' in 1914, Jesus foretold: 'This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.' Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in high school and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way towards its finish, if not actually gone! This is why parents who base their lives on God's prophetic Word find it much more practical to direct their young ones into trades that do not require such long periods of additional schooling… True, those who do not understand where we are in the stream of time from God's viewpoint will call this impractical. But which is really practical: preparing yourself for a position in this world that soon will pass away? or working toward surviving this system's end and enjoying eternal life in God's righteous new order?

*** Watchtower 1969 March 15 p.171 What Influences Decisions in Your Life? ***
12 The influence and spirit of this world is to get ahead, to make a name for oneself. Many schools now have student counselors who encourage one to pursue higher education after high school, to pursue a career with a future in this system of things. Do not be influenced by them. Do not let them "brainwash" you with the Devil's propaganda to get ahead, to make something of yourself in this world. This world has very little time left! Any "future" this world offers is no future! Wisely, then, let God's Word influence you in selecting a course that will result in your protection and blessing. Make pioneer service, the full-time ministry, with the possibility of Bethel or missionary service your goal. This is a life that offers an everlasting future!

Re: Education

It strikes me that people that ignore these quotes and pretend these things never happened and were never written are being more than ignorant. Those that fail to learn from history are destined to repeat the same mistakes.

Why not accept these things happened, appreciate that Jehovah has corrected many things but that this is still an ongoing process and until we're in the Millennium and living under direct supernatural rule of the 144000, Jesus and the earthly princes, that we are still being directed by imperfect men. Because of this, our Bible-trained conscience must be our guide in some non-doctrinal matters.
In all things there must be balance. One thing that I find is that a lot of people make black and white rules over the society's suggestions, that were never really meant to be black and white. Are there grey areas? Yes, there is stuff on the WTCD about conscience matters. There are some people who say internet use all together is wrong for witnesses, eventhough the society never really said such a thing. I'm not entirely sure what this thread is about...hahaha.. because I only skimmed it. But before anyone gets strong feelings over this issue, lets make sure the issues we're taking issue over is actually a black/white issue before we issue strong statements which really shouldn't be issues in the first place. I need a thesaurus....

Heh...

I'm afraid it's a bit late to stop the "strong feelings". Unfortunately, the essay was misunderstood to be saying we can disregard the organization's council altogether. People defending each side stopped calmly listening to each other's opinion and hurtful things were said... You'll know what I mean if you read it, but it's terribly frustrating. And embarrassing behavior from Christians on both sides of the issue.
We just watched the video on "Respect Jehovah's Authority", which is for discussion at the Service meeting this week. Wow was it on case point!!! If you haven't watched it yet, do. It touches on so much of what has been discussed here.
somewhat off topic but did you see the look on Korah's face in the accompanying watchtower article. hahahahah
I think that the context of what darkdiadem say is true. We should use our way of reasoning to figure out things. But its not an entirely grey area as darkdiadem even say. But just accepting everything that is said blindly would be very wrong. We have the organisation to help us stay on track that's why we go to the meetings to help, support and upbuild eachother.

As its said in the bible power corrupts humans. And its sad to say but some people use the power they get as elders in a wrong way. I have seen that plenty of times as the son of an elder. Its all a balance between subjecting and reasoning/questioning why you should subject on the specific question.

And about the marriage in the 40's there are a lot of well respected couples here in denmark that was married in the 40's.
"And about the marriage in the 40's there are a lot of well respected couples here in denmark that was married in the 40's."

I'm sure there are and isn't it a great thing they used their own consciences at the time and didn't fall victim to the direction given at that time?
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