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Artsy me - by Micha

I hate-hate-hate being sick!

Yeah, the title pretty much sums it up. I feel like crap. Haven't slept well in about a week. How am I supposed to get better if I can't rest? =\

[change subject]

I've been reading up on lucid dreams. I'd love to be able to do that, seems so cool. And it could help me understand myself, so it would speed up my psychological process. For a couple of nights I've been trying to remember my dreams, as that's one of the first steps to lucidity. I'm getting only bits and pieces for now, but it's still better than before. Any oneironauts around here care to give some advice? ;) Or at least, you know, recommend some good sites on lucid dreaming...


I don't know any websites on lucide dreaming....but I would be careful with it. Are you actually wanting to have an out of body experience? Cause if that is the case, you could very well let the demons take over you mind if you were to try and do that.
Jehovah warns us not to do things like that or anything like the meditation part of yoga merely for the reason of if we go too deep within our minds it just gives the demons and satan more of a chance to get in there and mess with us because we let out guard down.


Go research. Lucid dreams and OBEs are different things.

I'm not a JW, but I think you shouldn't be concerned about that. Do you believe you can leave your body? If so, how would you actually be able to do that? Either you believe we have souls, and you are not a JW, or you don't and your concerns are unfounded.

That does not make sense.

And, if you can't do something as simple as meditation because you are afraid of daemons, you have bigger problems than that. I guess you didn't research about meditation, either.

Re: whaa??

According to research done by the Lucidity Institute, maybe not all, but many OBEs might actually be lucid dreams mistaken for OBEs... But, yeah, they have different concepts.


Re: whaa??

I don't know whether you were talking to me or maiden, but I guess you were talking to me.

I am a JW and the only souls I believe in is our body... there is no soul that leaves your body when you die if that is what you meant.
I did not mean we cannot meditate at all.. we are actually told to meditate on the things we are taught, meaning think about this and research them so that we better understand things, but not sit there and become into an unconcience state like dreaming when we are meditating.. there is a point where it goes too far.

Read this article and you will know what I meant by what I was saying.

I agree. You do need to be careful about trying to make your mind too free, it does make you more susceptible to things like demons.
How can someone's mind be too free? That's kind of like saying some hears or sees too well. I guess I should stop studying the Bible now before the truth sets me too free.
Ask yourself if you can ever be too caucious in a world with such badness?
There's a balance that is needed.
From Dictionary.com: "Lucid dream: a dream state in which one is conscious enough to recognize that one is in the dream state and which stays in one's memory." How does that give demons a better chance of messing with me if I'm actually more conscious than I normally would be in a dream? My guard would not be down, quite on the contrary.

And how is it that an OBE would allow demons to take over my mind? You do realize that the expression "out-of-body" is just that, an expression. You should have studied by now that the platonic concept of soul as a part of us that can leave our bodies is not biblical and has no scientific basis. So when one says one has had an OBE (and I've had a couple myself) one is simply saying that it felt like it was out of one's body, most probably due to a natural phenomenon called sleep paralysis.

I'm sure quite a few episodes of demon possession may have happened that manifested themselves as lucid dreams or OBEs, just as many people possessed by demons were mistaken for mentally insane. This doesn't mean that most lucid dreams or OBEs are caused by the influence of demons, just like many people are, in fact, insane.

Sorry if I seem too preachy, I've been doing some reading on the subject. The possibility of "going deep within my mind" is actually very enticing to me, since I've been making serious efforts to understand myself. And, yeah, if I can, I'll use lucid dreams to help me achieve that, unless I'm proven that it is harmful.

Apparently, this is the site on lucid dreaming. There's some very interesting information that can even help you if you meet someone at service who claims to have had an OBE.
I was not saying they could take over your mind literally when you are doing this.... but I have done research on things like this and the bible HIGHLY discourages it... because it is a form of yoga...
I probably worded it wrong, what I meant is, it gives demons and satan a better chance to influence your thinking without you even knowing it.
If you are wanting to get baptized I highly recommend that you talk to the person you are studying with about it.
here is the article I read on it yoga...

From what I've read here, Dream Yoga does use lucid dreaming as a way to achieve their goal of "becoming one with Brahman" (Wikipedia), but that doesn't mean that every lucid dream is a way of practicing yoga. I'm not embracing any buddhist beliefs or wanting to "still the mind", I'm trying to stimulate it and make it more focused. Lucid dreams are simply an attempt of having a certain measure of control over one's own dreams to better understand oneself. I can hardly see how the Bible would be against that.

Based on the research I've done of the Bible, what it does warn us against is trying to foretell the future based on dreams. That is indeed wrong, and it's not what I'm trying to do.
Well, I did take a look at what the website said about lucid dreaming, and it seems like a method of self hypnosis to me. It reminds me of the techniques that shamans, and other practicers of spiritism use to see visions. Although they say it has benefits that sound similar to visualisation techniques, I personally would shy away from it. Visualisation techniques where you picture yourself having success are not linked to spiritism, and can be a useful technique to imporve performance in sports.

Question for you, how do you plan on learning about yourself through dreaming? If you are controlling the experiance, you aren't really looking deeper inside. The Bible warns of looking to dreams for answers. I encourage you to do research into what the Insight book, and the various articles have to say on dreams. Personally, I look deeper into myself though prayerful meditation, and study of the Bible. I think about the motivation for my actions. Self reflection, and meditation of that sort can do much good.
I intend on learning about myself by analyzing dreams much in the same way that psychologists analyze writings and drawings from their patients. Only, since I'll be in the dream, I'll have a direct connection with my subconscious and understand what dream objects mean a lot more easily.

And, yeah, I've done some research using the Watchtower Library CD. The articles that mentioned dreams (and there was nothing on lucid dreams specifically, as expected) talked about the wrong of trying to foretell the future through dreams and explained that dreams in general are not messages from God, but images, for one reason or another, brought out of our subconscious. There was no indication that it would be wrong to examine them for what they are, images from our subconscious, as is done in psychoanalysis.

Now, about saying that the techniques to induce lucid dreaming are a kind of self hypnosis... I don't know. It seems to be a kind of auto-suggestion, yes, but I don't know how to draw the line between that and hypnosis. Then again, it's not like one would become under someone else's power by having lucid dreams. Oneironauts are retaining their mental faculties even during sleep, not giving them up to someone else.
Is what your really trying to do is remember things about your dreams when you go to bed to sleep at night? Then analyze them when you wake up so that you better understand yourself?
Jehovah encourages us to reason on the Scriptures, to meditate on His ways, and doing so prayerfully, with our own minds and hearts as the focal point brings JEHOVAH into our minds. If we are isolated into ourselves, we have no resistance, no guard against "whispering" demons. Jehovah is the only One who can help us focus our thoughts and sharpen our senses, from the everyday to the spiritual and that which is too bright for the world to see.
Thank you for the advice. I do reason on the Scriptures, meditate and pray. I don't see how lucid dreaming would be a way of isolating myself. Everyone is already isolated while they sleep, and I wouldn't be sleeping any more than I already do, I'd simply have my brain working a little more while my body rests. But I'll make sure to include this subject in my prayers and ask Jehovah to help me understand why so many people think this is wrong.
I know I may be coming off as preachy to you...but..
Babe, all I'm trying to do is help. I just know that the feeling I get from what you are trying to do is not a good feeling.
And I've asked a lot of other people also what they think and did research on it and all the signs are pointing to "run away from this."
What I would do, is talk to your study conductor and pray about it to Jehovah.
I care for you and don't want to see you hurt or do something that you will regret. If all you are wanting to do is better understand yourself, then what better way to do that then draw closer to Jehovah.
If you pray to him for guidance and knowledge he is all the aid you need to help you understand yourself better.
Stay close to him and you cannot go wrong.

I don't want you to think I am condemming you for trying to understand yourself better I just don't think you are going about it the right way. I hope that you understand that I just care, and want to help.

I did some research on dreams and got this(the article I'm talking about will be in another comment post) and found it to be interesting....I won't make anymore comments about it,though. I don't want to seem like I am cramming it down your throat, that is not my intention.
It is up to you what you choose to do.
Interpretation of Dreams

In view of all the factors involved in dreaming, it becomes increasingly clear why it is unwise to attach special significance to our dreams. Since everyone dreams nearly every night, should we feel that our dreams are unusual and have a special meaning? In one book, entitled “Sleep,” the writers declared: “The analysis of literally truckloads of dream stories, and the use of laboratory methods lend no hope that there will ever be a quick formula for understanding dreams.”

It is true that there are many who would interpret your dreams for you, but the differences of opinion among them are one of the strongest arguments against trying to attach certain meanings to your dreams. Dr. Rosalind Cartwright declared: “Probably the most impressive thing we’re finding out is the huge range of individual differences [among dream interpreters].” She also wrote: “Many psychotherapists still insist that they know the correct interpretation of your dream . . . apparently quite oblivious to the fact that their colleagues, on the basis of the same dream, may see quite different things for you.”

Rather than attempt to interpret dreams for others, the tendency among some investigators today is to teach persons how to interpret their own dreams. Since each person is acquainted with his own experiences and problems, it is felt that he is in the best position to deduce the meaning of his dreams. But have you ever tried to figure out what a surrealistic painter had in mind when he painted a certain picture? How many persons in a group would give the same meaning? That is just how varied dream interpretation can be, according to Dr. Calvin Hall.

One reason for this is, of course, that dream interpreters of different cultures give an entirely different meaning to symbols seen in a dream. For example, the Greeks believed that a snake seen in a dream meant disease, whereas the Egyptians felt it to be a beneficent sign of a settled dispute. So it is wise not to take too seriously any natural dreams you may have. But you can enjoy them. As one writer put it, dreams frequently are so funny that “I often wonder that people don’t wake themselves up laughing”!

On the other hand, if your sleep is often disturbed by nightmares, rather than looking for any meaning in them, it might be better to look for possible causes of them in your way of life. How true what the Bible says: “For because of abundance of occupation there are dreams”!—Eccl. 5:7.

Dreams of Divine Origin

Those who search for meaning in their dreams often point to divinely inspired dreams recorded in the Bible and ask, ‘Could not some dreams today also be inspired of God?’ It is true that in Bible times God did use dreams to communicate with his servants, as in the well-known dream of Joseph when he was warned to flee to Egypt with his wife, Mary, and their child, Jesus. God also sent dreams to men not devoted to him, as when he gave the prophetic dreams to Egypt’s Pharaoh announcing seven years of famine in the land.—Matt. 2:13; Gen. 41:1-7.

All such divinely sent dreams were given so as to protect or guide God’s servants, or to influence the successful outworking of his will and purpose. However, the apostle Paul wrote: “God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways [including dreams] to our forefathers by means of the prophets, has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son.” (Heb. 1:1, 2) We have in the Bible a record of what God ‘spoke to us by his Son.’ So there is no need for Jehovah God to use dreams to speak to us.

Therefore, if you are wondering what the future has in store for you, or if you are searching for a solution to your problems, you can find the answer, not in an interpretation of your dreams, but in God’s Word, the Bible.
Rather than attempt to interpret dreams for others, the tendency among some investigators today is to teach persons how to interpret their own dreams. Since each person is acquainted with his own experiences and problems, it is felt that he is in the best position to deduce the meaning of his dreams.

That is exactly what I'm trying to do. I had seen this article before, and I don't see any indication that interpreting dreams is bad - as long as we're not trying to find out "what the future has in store", which I am not.

I appreciate your concern for me and, of course, I myself don't want to get hurt or do things I'll regret. I'll talk to Alex about this in the first opportunity I get.
Okay, that sounds good.

Your welcome. <3